September 14, 2010.
Typed from DVD by Sue Fentress Austin in September 2010
ROY WHITE - ON LONG AGO CHRISTMAS TIME MEMORIES.
Gary: Today we have Roy White to discuss early Christmas’s on Knotts Island (KI). Well Roy, what was it like back then? Late 20s, 30s for Christmas?
Roy: I can go back into the early 20s – I was born in ’18. Back in those days was quite a bit of difference in Christmas time and what it is today. We were lucky to get any kind of toy in those days. It was mostly – my daddy had 11 of us kids and we might get a new pair of shoes or a new pair of pants. But we wouldn’t get any toys. Our biggest thing back in those days, we looked forward to, was Mr. Knapp. Mr. J. P. Knapp at the schoolhouse. He always gave each one of us a stocking, plus something to wear, a sweater or shirt and then one toy. And so then that was the thing people, kids on KI really looked forward to. Back in those days we had the immediate family get together. My family, we hardly ever had anybody over – we had such a big family that we couldn’t afford to have many more people besides us.
Gary: So you had 11 people?
Roy: Thirteen when we were all together. So sometimes there might be some of the Beach people like Raymond Williams and Dona, his wife at that time, would come over and eat Christmas dinner with us. But mostly we just gathered ourselves around the table and mostly what we had at Christmas was, it wasn’t turkey and ham like today. Mostly it would be something Daddy killed off the Bay. He legally killed a swan or wild goose or maybe some ducks. Quite a bit of difference from what it is today with all this turkey and ham and all kinds of Hors d’oeuvres. We always went to each one of the churches. They always give us a little bag of candy in those days and would be an apple, an orange from both churches. Of course we made sure we went to both churches for the little church play. The school always put on a play too and the same night Mr. Knapp give us our Christmas present, most times it was Christmas Eve. Some of the people around the Island would go around caroling, church people. I never was a good singer so I never did get into that group.
Gary: Going back to your meal – you’d have swan? What else would you have with swan?
Roy: Well, somehow Mama always managed to have cranberry sauce and it’s why I still love cranberries so good today I guess. And then most things like mashed potatoes. My Daddy grew his own potatoes. He’ll hill ‘em up, he called it and put ‘em in with straw on top of them and when they’d get ready for potatoes, they’d just reach in there, hoping there weren’t a snake in there and pull the potatoes out. So we always had plenty of potatoes so mashed potatoes was one and never missed having collard greens. That was the big thing on KI – I think pretty near everybody on KI ate collard greens at least once a week back in those days.
Gary: How ‘bout going out New Year’s Eve. Is the tradition with Navy Beans or..?
Roy: Black Eyed Peas. New Year’s Day we’d always have ‘em. We believed that and I think everybody believed it and did it. We always had Black Eyed Peas. Mama used to make Black Eyed Pea Soup. We’d have potatoes and probably add onion to it. But mostly Black Eyed Peas.
Gary: These were imported?
Roy: No we grew these.
Gary: You grew them on the Island?
Roy: Yeah, Daddy did. Of course in those days you always had mashed potatoes – Mama believed in those and rolls. Mama used to make the best rolls. One time I remember Edmund, my brother, ate nine of them one meal of these great big rolls.
Gary: What about the dressing?
Roy: Always had dressing with whatever we had – game – always had dressing and cornbread.
Gary: Was sweet potatoes used much?
Roy: Sweet Potatoes – yes, always had them on the table at Christmas time. Right much at other times too, but at Christmas mainly we always had them and at New Years.
Gary: Much of the food, except for the cranberries, was locally produced then.
Roy: Yeah. We didn’t do much buying . Didn’t have money in those days to buy with – we couldn’t buy. So we just ate what we grew on the farm and what we got off the water. And in the summertime, we lived on fish and in the wintertime, we lived off the game. We used to go on the Beach and kill scoggins, we used to call ‘em. They were little egrets. They were better than chickens. We just lived off the land. No way of going off and buying things. And of course in those days you couldn’t buy a loaf of bread on the Island, you had to make your own bread. And we bought flour, my Daddy did, 50 pounds in a keg. I think it came in, like a nail keg, a wooden keg. And later on it got so you could buy it in 24 pound bags and then they got it down to 12 pound bags. But we didn’t buy any bread, made our own.
Gary: Initially you’d have to buy 50 pounds of flour?
Roy: Yeah, 50 pound keg we used to call it.
Gary: And that came from?
Roy: I’m not sure, but off the Island. But there were other ways but on the Island that’s the way you could buy it.
Gary: But that was from off the Island? Flour?
Roy: Eddie Munden would go to Norfolk on the old steamboat and get it and bring it back to the Island and sell it at the store. And one thing Eddie Munden always carried was flour and cheese and coffee and sugar. That was the main things he carried and corn meal. During those days anybody that had a farm, raised their own corn and got it ground and most of the mills if you carried ‘em a bushel of corn, you’d get a bushel of meal back. Because when you grind it, it gains one-fourth. So they keep one-fourth for grinding it.
Gary: So then the tree – we’re used to the tree with lights and bulbs and everything else. Electricity, candles on the trees?
Roy: No. Christmas trees were a cedar tree would be cut in the woods. Go back in the woods and find a cedar tree. Mama, herself would make balls out of wood – I think some of them were made out of paper, tie ‘em on there. She had some kind of tassle she’d run around the tree. I don’t know.
Gary: Garland or something like that?
Roy: I don’t remember the name – it was just like string, paper around it. Run that around the tree and she always made a, like a little dollbaby for the angel, and put on top of it. So there was no lights, no electricity, no way of getting lights. It was quite a bit of difference – Christmas was quite a bit of difference from like they are now. Now the houses are decorated. Back in those days, it was about the only thing you’d ever see on the house was a wreath. Maybe somebody would make a wreath out of pine needles or something. That’s the only thing you’d ever see on a house.
Gary: So the ornaments on the tree were probably all handmade?
Roy: All the ornaments on the tree had to be handmade because there wasn't anybody that sold anything on this Island. No way for us to get to Norfolk we had a hard time back when I was a boy. People don’t realize how hard it was ‘cause we had to take, Daddy had to take a cart across the marsh, causeway now, old cordaroy road. Take the old mule, horse or whatever we had, hook it up to a cart and go to Norfolk on a horse and cart. So we only got there once or twice a year. We didn’t do any buying. Eddie Munden would, anything that would be needed, Eddie Munden would go to Norfolk once a week and we’d order it through him. He’d bring it back, he had a truck. Eddie was the best thing that ever happened to KI. He was. People run their credit with him. During the time of slack season, the Island, most of the people would depend on the hunting in the winter months and make the money. In the summer, after hunting was over, they had trapping and fishing. Eddie Munden would let ‘em have credit and that’s the way KI survived. And if it hadn’t been for Eddie Munden, I don’t think the Island would have ever survived in those days.
Gary: He was the bank of the Island?
Roy: He was the angel of the Island. But most people on the Island did their shopping through the catalogues – Sears & Roebuck and Montgomery Wards and Speigels. They used to come to the Island and if you wanted a pair of pants or a shirt you’d just order it from those stores and they’d come through the mail. We had good mail service over here. Back in them early days they’d come by boat and then in later years it come, we got the Causeway – we always had good mail service.
Gary: How often did you get the mail?
Roy: Well, most times we got mail every day.
Gary: The Island was served by some form of steamer?
Roy: No. See we had a train that came down to Munden’s Point. I think Ed Brumley was one of the mail carriers if I remember. They’d go over to the train at Munden’s Point and bring it around.
Roy: Yeah, just before you get to Monk’s. Remember where the little service station is and Monk’s Place is on the right? Gary:
Yeah.
Roy: Just before you get to that, a train track went through there, across the road there. And it went right straight to Pungo.
Gary: It followed Princess Anne Rd?
Roy: Yeah, it followed Princess Anne Rd, east of Princess Anne Rd, and when it got to Pungo it kinda cut across the road and went more like Indian River Rd onto Norfolk.
Gary: Oh, followed Indian River Rd to Norfolk?
Roy: I’m not sure exactly if it was close to Indian River but it went that a’way. And of course Pungo was a pretty big train station, that was one of the biggest train stations in those days ‘cause they had an ice plant there and potato graders. In the summertime, late summer, they’d dug potatoes and the graders there and they haul all the potatoes that was grown in the county. And with the graders there, they’d put ‘em on the train and ship ‘em on into Norfolk. Where else I don’t know. I worked in the graders two years and it was hard work. It lasted about six weeks each year.
Gary: So you had a train station at Pungo, probably one at Pleasant Ridge?
Roy: No, next station was at Munden’s Point. They didn’t stop there was no place, no train station. Could have been one at Back Bay but I can’t remember. I don’t think, though, there was one at Back Bay.
Gary: Well then, going back to the catalogue, you’d order your clothes and things. What about toys, you’d make yourself? Roy: Toys, I don’t remember getting any toys. I think one year Mama bought us a wagon between us. One of those red wagons, you know.
Gary: Eleven of you to share the wagon?
Roy: Yeah. Of course the oldest ones, like Edmund and I, we got the job of running with it, ‘cause in those days you didn’t mind running. In those days, wood ducks were our main toy. Daddy would pile his wood ducks after hunting under the old catwood tree and if we wanted to play, we’d just grab one of those wood ducks by the string and pull him around the yard. Sometimes we’d break the head off probably, but when the hunting got ready to start again the next Fall, he’d have to make new heads and all to put on some of his ducks.
Gary: Going back to Christmas and all, Christmas Eve would it be a church play, school play?
Roy: Christmas Eve would be at the schoolhouse. Mr. Knapp handing out, our church deal usually on the Friday before Chistmas, I think. Friday night or it could have been on Saturday night before Christmas. We’d go to church - we already had our candy before Christmas because the hard candy would only last us about two days maybe.
Gary: So on Christmas morning there really wasn’t much to open.
Roy: We didn’t have any toys to open. No, I don’t remember really anything that we had when I was growing up. Some of the kids on the Island might have had toys, but I don’t ever remember getting a toy. I always wanted a bicycle but never could get one. Daddy had to buy 11 bicycles, not one, so we didn’t get no bicycles.
Gary: So really Christmas morning was just like any other morning except..
Roy: Yeah, but there was always something there on Christmas morning but it seems like it would be clothes. Seems like Mama always made sure we got one piece of clothes for Christmas.
Gary: So for eleven children it would be quite expensive.
Gary: Were you still guiding around Christmas?
Roy: Yeah, my Daddy ran that Club. He’d have men, but I don’t ever remember having men on Christmas Day. But he would have them before and after. That was the time of the year that my Daddy made his money, what he made, it wasn’t any big thing. Back in those days the guides only got $10 a day. Of course that was big money in those days ‘cause if you were working you only got $1 per day. But it was no money on the Island. I think maybe most all the money that was made on the Island was made on this water – fishing or hunting and trapping. A lot of people trapped in those days. All these marshes were full of muskrats and coons and stuff like that. At least 25 people trapped. Mr. Knapp had all his gang. I think he had seven guards over there and they trapped that marsh. And then the Currituck Club had five men working there so they trapped that marsh. Swan Island had five working over there that I know of, maybe six and they trapped that marsh and then there was quite a few scavengers that would go around and trap, stepping on other people’s property and trapping. A lot of people trapping. Muskrats, you could sell muskrats in those days for about fifty cents apiece and so it was pretty good money if you could get four or five muskrats a day. You could make right much money you know.
Gary: So muskrats and coons?
Roy: Yeah, and fox. Foxes were hard to catch and a few otter too. Maybe ten otters caught in a year on the Island.
Gary: Yeah, if you got fifty cents a muskrat and you were only getting a dollar a day for working , then four or five muskrats you made out.
Roy: Yeah, it was good money in muskrats. When I got big enough I trapped myself up in the Mill Cove. Daddy owned half of the Mill Cove and Ike Doxey owned one side and my Daddy the other half. Mr. Doxey never did trap so I just trapped the whole thing. And I’d get one or two muskrats of a morning when I was going to school. I’d fish my traps and go on to school. Those days nobody came onto the Island to buy ‘em until maybe the last of the season. So you had to skin all your muskrats. One year when I was still in school I sold $130 worth of muskrats.
Gary: That was a lot of money.
Roy: Yeah.
Gary: I remember trapping muskrats and skinning them.
Roy: Used to take old shingles and cut around the end and stretch ‘em on there. Used to try and get ‘em bigger and bigger and you could make more money. Those people that bought them, Jewish people were pretty smart. Jewish people that come down here were Mr. Decker and all, they knew their hides. Of course, these boys like me, they probably could have given you half price for them. The Club, they all pooled theirs together and when the buyers would come down to buy those, they would probably spend the day there haggling back and forth on the price and they’d get a good price for theirs. And years after the war started and all, muskrats went up pretty high – about $3 apiece. Then it was really good money. In those days, you could get pretty good money, you could get a job during the war.
Gary: I was trapping them after the war, couple of years. I can’t remember the price, maybe $5 seems to stick in my mind.
Roy: You might have got that much. I never did get that much - $3 was as high as I got.
Gary: This was up in New York.
Roy: I say the furs the further north you go the better the fur was. So you probably had a whole lot better fur up there. So yours probably did bring a whole lot better money.
Gary: That was a long time ago.
Roy: Yeah, long time since I did it too!
Gary: Well, Christmas Day, what time did you usually eat dinner?
Roy: We’d eat dinner about 5 o’clock in the afternoon. We didn’t eat in the middle of the day, we waited. Most times it would be at least 5 or maybe even 6, 7 depends on what my Daddy was doing. Back in those days, he went hunting four days a week – Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. So if Christmas fell on one of those days, Daddy was hunting. Because if he didn’t have men, he’d sell his ducks. Weren’t no trouble selling ducks in those days. Well people just lived off the land, that was all. They did it any way they could.
Gary: Sure is some difference now. Christmas now starts in November. Promoting all the toys, clothes and everything.
Roy: Christmas is just another day. People didn’t even stop working. No such thing as getting a vacation – most people on the Island worked for themselves. At one time on this Island there was 52 commercial fishermen making a living off the Bay.
Gary: Really?
Roy: Yeah. Fifty-two when I was a boy. You could only have 110 yards of net in those days so it would only be one man to a boat most times. And what fish they were after were called chubs which is just old black bass. Don’t have many of them anymore. But the Bay used to be just full of them. I don’t understand why we don’t have ‘em now because the water got fresher. But back in those days, Roland Halstead was Game Warden in Virginia Beach, Princess Anne then, and he had a tester and this Bay was about 20% salt in those days.
Gary: Oh really.
Roy: Yes. Now they claim if you get any salt in here it kills the bass and I don’t understand it. Those days the Bay was slick with grass. My Daddy would leave the landing mornings I could tell which blind he went to by the track in the grass.
Gary: Yeah, Paul Brumley was telling me about this. Back then the water would wash over from the ocean quite regularly.
Roy: Yeah, every year you’d get washovers. Sometimes two or three times.
Gary: Cleans out the Bay.
Roy: And also when it washed over, you could tell exactly where the salt water was, the colors. The salt water was blueish-greenish and the Bay water was muddy looking . And you could tell it wouldn’t mix until the wind mixed it. It kept getting further and further as it came over across the Bay. It would take it two or three weeks after it had a washover for the salt to get on this side.
Gary: Oh…
Roy: It wouldn’t just come over like you think it would. It wouldn’t mix.
Gary: Well the Bay is kinda cut off from water circulation.
Roy: Yes, that’s the trouble with the Bay now, its cut off from the water.
Gary: For some fresh water coming in from Back Bay and all..
Roy: It’s really no fresh water coming in from Back Bay because that Bay has got so many houses . It’s like Knotts Island here. There’s so many houses around it’s polluting the water all the time. All these septic tanks. Even Sandbridge has septic tanks and that’s nothing but sand and you know that water is going to come into the Bay. Back Bay is in worse shape than this Bay is, Currituck Sound. But we really need sea tides but I hope we don’t get one ‘cause it would take a heck of a hurricane to put a sea tide over here, across the sand pits. About ’36 there were sand pits there and of course everytime we got a good northeastern wind it would bring the ocean, bring the water right on across the Beach. Brother Edmund and I used to go on the Beach, take about 20 yards of net, drag the net in the holes and catch the fish and sell them.
Gary: After you have a northeastern huh?
Roy: The fish would come over on the Beach, in the holes, and we’d just take the net, on one side and the other and drag it out. Sometimes we’d catch 45, 50 pounds of fish in one hole. Most were speckled trout and round heads and spots in the Fall of the year. Yeah, we made a lot of spending money on that Beach catching them fish.
Gary: Well Roy, as usual it’s been a pleasure. I enjoyed discussing that with you and really I think the children might say this day it’s hard for them to visualize what it was in the 20s and the 30s, Now they are given so much – it’s a whole new world.
Roy: Back in those days you didn’t even have enough money to buy a fish hook. We used safety pins. Bend the ends of them. Of course there was plenty of fish and put a worm on the end. The fish wouldn’t have a bobble and we’d use the end of a Myrtle bush or any kind of bush we could find. A thick thing could be used for a fishing pole – we didn’t have any canes over here or reeds or anything.
Gary: Now we have all that fancy stuff.
Roy: Yeah, yeah.
Gary: I would imagine people, the younger people watching this show probably think this might be fantasy that went on.
Roy: Yeah, they wouldn’t believe it. There was people that lived over on the Beach - Swan Island, Lundy Cason and his wife raised nine boys. Jimmy Cason grew up on Swan Island. Come off of Swan Island once a week to get their groceries. Used a push boat, didn’t have any motor.
Gary: Your family, 11. Now 2 or 3 children is about the average.
Roy: Yeah, it would be hard unless you had a lot of money and had a good job to raise 11 kids now. Can’t do it hardly.
Gary: Even then the reason the kids were so healthy is they lived off the land.
Roy: Yeah. We didn’t have any refrigerators or anything so everything we got was fresh, except the hog meat. Fish we’d go out and catch when we wanted them. Mama would cook them right then.
Gary: Yeah, that’s right. All your game was fresh. Well thanks again Roy.